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who is wrong
A student in Mustang Oklahoma was suspended yesterday for use of a mobile device on campus. Normally this is a natural thing but i this case the student claims he took a picture of his sub napping. Now suspended the kids mom is trying to get an injunction aganist the sub and the school.
I would like your opinion here. Who is wrong here the student or the school?
now personally i believe both are wrong but i want to hear you all
#1 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:23 PM ESTI do agree both are wrong...but that sub should have shot a five hour engergy drink before work..LOL Maybe the sub went and saw that movie Bad Teacher and thought it was ok to take a nappy during class????
I agree with you. Both were wrong and in violation of policy so both should see consequences.
No the kid was wrong. He wasn't supposed to be using a mobile device. That's the bottom line. It wasn't a life threatening emergency that's a problem. How about the student shooting an attacker on campus is it now okay to have the gun in his possession? Just because the teacher was sleeping doesn't excuse him.
What is the schools policy? Do they have a policy against mobile devices as they do in my children's school? (you know kids. Up skirt shots. Over the bathroom stalls, and post on the internet) If so the student should be suspended if that is what the policy calls for. Policy about employees napping during work hours? I remember seeing my teachers doze off throughout my K12 years.
No the kid was wrong. He wasn't supposed to be using a mobile device. That's the bottom line. It wasn't a life threatening emergency that's a problem.
Seems to me this is roughly analogous to a "whistleblower" kind of situation.
And while, yes, there wasn't a life threatening situation, just who was supervising this class if the sub was asleep?
Indeed both are wrong. However, I would dare say that the no mobile devices at school rule is broken on a daily basis without repercussion.
Take the suspension and be proud kid!! People get suspended here on Newsvine ALL THE TIME for saying/doing the right thing.
I am inclined to agree with you that both are at fault. But, I am assuming the cell phones are not permitted on the school grounds.
#2 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:37 PM ESTInitially, the student appears to be in more trouble.
But in the end, I think that the school will pay the higher price because of how this whole situation was handled and now, the publicity.
The kid didn't do anything wrong. He was in a public place and the photographs are not in anyway obscene.
The school is at fault for punishing him for cataloging their poor standards as an educational facility.
#3 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:10 PM ESTHe was in a public place and the photographs are not in anyway obscene.
This is a common misconception. The school is not a public place. And the issue is not obcene pictures it's using a mobile device which is against the rules.
They suspended him for having a camera phone? yeah, that sounds like a load of bull-hockey to me.
You don't suspend a kid for having a camera phone. You give him detention or something like that.
Suspension is usually reserved for bigger offenses, not having a camera phone.
If I was the Principal of the School, after having heard from ALL my teachers, concerning their opinion of THIS Student;
I would discipline this Student Also.
HE Posted it, for ALL to SEE;
This student Only wanted the Notoriety, and in addition, this *expletive* (*D.S.*), did NOT care, if the obviously tired sub,
had a family to feed and care for( I wonder, did this (*D.S.*) of a student, even inquire, before he did the Public damage to this sub, if maybe, the sub was up at night with a sick spouse or a sick child ?!
NO, this (*D.S.*) of a Student did NOT care.
A total (*D.S.*) !!!!
Suspension is usually reserved for bigger offenses, not having a camera phone.
Apparently not. How are you an expert on these issues? Administrators make the rules and if they say suspension is the penalty that's what it is.
The School is wrong. While it may be an infraction to "use a mobile device on campus" the intent is to keep the students focused on school, not texting or yapping with buddies. The student used his device to record evidence of an infraction, not as a distraction to chat with his main squeeze. While rules are put in place for the general safety and well being of all, it is occasionally "right" to break that rule, especially if one is breaking the rule but not for the purpose of engaging in activities the rule is designed to stop. What if the kid had snapped a picture of a teacher fondling a fellow student? If a gunman had taken his class hostage and he had managed to get a text out to mom to call 911? Look at the intent of the rule along with the intent of the infraction before rendering judgement.
#5 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:26 PM ESTApparently we're teaching them that rules mean nothing. "we will take care of you baby no matter what" Ask any teacher what they most dislike about teaching and the answer will be parents most of the time.
Ask any teacher what they most dislike about teaching and the answer will be parents most of the time.
Really? How many teachers do you know? Because none that I know would say that.
I just happen to know many teachers and each and everyone say that the worst part of the job is parents. It seems that their babies are never at fault for anything.
And I can personally say that I believe it's true. Both of my children have kids in school and they have never been happy with any teachers.
As best I can tell public schools are teaching students to be good little Socialists.
#6 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:37 PM ESTAre you referring to this specific incident? Or are you a Glenn Beck fan and think that in general?
I think he's a fan of everything Fox, limbaugh and beck.
Too many unknowns to form a solid argument either way, if the teacher nodded off in class it seems overblown, if the teacher slept through most of a class I would say the teacher needs to get some more coffee, if he didn't have a class that period and took a nap no biggie afternoon naps are actually healthy. The kid shouldn't have taken a picture.
The far greater wrong is on the part of the school, which over-reacted and now appears to be retaliating. In this case, I suspect that appearance is wholly accurate.
#7 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:40 PM ESTSuspension? The student is unhappy because his teacher is asleep, and they give him suspension? Well since the student is a kid, and the school administration is supposedly adult - I'd say they are the bigger idiots. In my book the substitute should be barred from school, and have some pay docked, and the kid should be punished by having to attend extra classes, like an AP course or something. That'll teach him to bring a picture camera to school instead of the cell phone (or in addition to the cell phone).
#8 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:41 PM ESTThe student is unhappy because his teacher is asleep, and they give him suspension?
Quit trying to make something out of nothing. Who said the student was unhappy? Do you remember being in school? Having a sub was a break because you can get away with anything. Subs have no idea where the class stands in their studies so they just can walk in a take over where the permanent teacher left off. They become a babysitter. I have been out of school a long time and still remember the sub days and every student couldn't wait for one.
Quit trying to make something out of nothing.
Quit telling me what to do.
Who said the student was unhappy?
Why would he report it otherwise?
Do you remember being in school?
Yes, but I do not rember you there.
Having a sub was a break because you can get away with anything.
Except learning - hated those subs, they break the order, and screw up your mojo.
Subs have no idea where the class stands in their studies so they just can walk in a take over where the permanent teacher left off.
Perhaps, but do not recall them actually sleeping on the job. Normally they would ask a question or two and move on with the study material.
They become a babysitter
All bad teachers are babysitters. Even regular ones, who had little or no clue, were mostly babysitters, what is your point?
I have been out of school a long time and still remember the sub days and every student couldn't wait for one.
Like I said - you and I went to very different schools. Do not recall anyone in my class liking subs, even when they substituted the toughest most demanding teachers we had. They just didn't measure up.
Like I said - you and I went to very different schools. Do not recall anyone in my class liking subs, even when they substituted the toughest most demanding teachers we had. They just didn't measure up.
Of course they did not measure up. They had no idea what you had learned nor what you were to learn next. That's like walking into a new job and someone telling you that they are behind schedule and need to catch up in two days without any training.
Of course they did not measure up. They had no idea what you had learned nor what you were to learn next.
You are confusing capability with situational awareness. They indeed had none of the latter, but the vast majority of them also had none of the former.
That's like walking into a new job and someone telling you that they are behind schedule and need to catch up in two days without any training.
And? Happens all the time in my business. I mean half the time I being brought in because of the situation you describe.
the kid did something against the rules.
the school was right to suspend him, assuming that's their policy and they followed it.
it's not like the school supported the teacher's nap, did they?
#9 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:47 PM ESTIt's not possible to answer the question without knowing what discipline, if any, was given to the teacher. If the school ignored the evidence of the sub sleeping on the job and meeted out discipline to the student, only, then it is the school that is more in the wrong. If the teacher was disciplined based on clear evidence or an admission that he was sleeping, then neither the school nor the student were more wrong.
If I'm a taxpayer, I want that teacher's pay docked. I don't want to pay people for sleeping when they are supposed to be working. Also, sometimes rules should be broken when you are standing up for what's right. Read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau. Be prepared to take the consequences, but break the rules when necesarry for the sake of justice.
#10 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:33 PM ESTIt's not possible to answer the question without knowing what discipline, if any, was given to the teacher.
Subs are usually independant contractors so they can't administer any discipline. All they can do is not call him again. And with a shortage of teachers tha't probably not a good option either.
The school is wrong. Yes, the student broke the rules by using a cellphone during school hours, but the proper punishment for that per the Mustang Mid-High School handbook is that the phone be taken away and the parent has to come pick it up for the first infraction. Second infraction, the first plus they cannot have it on campus at all for the remainder of the year (page 40-41). Suspension would only be utilized had this been a repeat offense, although the child was not caught on campus with the device, but rather the product of the offense was found on the internet.
Per the regulations of suspensions (starting on page 43), posting a picture is not in anyway threatening or poses any sort of risk of physical harm toward student or staff.
Also, the section on student discipline for out-of-school action (page 45) is a weak argument. The only portion that would apply is:
Engaging in activity that causes physical or emotional harm to other students, teachers, or other school personnel.
It would be pretty sad if the school claimed this caused emotional harm, but it seems that this is all they have to fall back on as this picture was not sent to the school as part of a complaint that the teacher was sleeping on the job.
As it seems, if the school can find proof that the student that posted the picture actually took the picture, I wouldn't complain if the student had detention or some sort of on campus punishment that didn't remove them from class.
But undeniably the school has overreached big time on this and have not followed their own handbook when it states (page 37):
Each student will be treated in a fair and equitable manner, and the severity of the disciplinary action will be based on a careful assessment of the circumstances surrounding any infraction of the school regulations.
#12 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:28 PM ESTok i here by remove my nutral stance i here by declare the school guity. what i believe happend was the kid took a photo as evidance. then went to the kid went to the principal with the photo and said "this teacher isnt doing his job." i think we can all tell what happend next
#14 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:37 PM ESTscenario;
a Mom and a Dad speaking to their Son:
"WHY did You tell everybody what we do, Son ??!"
"It was OUR Business"
"You have embarrassed US, and Now We Must Move and Change Our Names."
"I am being a Good "Whistle Blower", said the Son.
"It would NOT be Right, to Report Others, and Not Report My Parents, ALSO".
.... The Son continued explaining his Status as *Informant*, said,
"The Local Office of *BIG BROTHER*, loves my *Informant work*, and
Is sending a Recommendation for Me, to The National *BIG BROTHER*".
*BIG BROTHER*, The Motto, "EVERYBODY TELLS, ON EVERYBODY".
over 20 years as a substitute, apart from my career, it is a responsibility you cannot take lightly
the kid did what he had to do
#15 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:04 PM ESTI agree with you. And in doing so he also showed that he was in violation of the rules. He was in violation before the teacher fell asleep.
The Sub, of course, should not have been napping;
BUT, the biggest problem is the kid's action....
IF, we don't WANT a ....=>*BIG BROTHER*<=.... is *WATCHING*....(0)
A "Proper" Kid would have asked the Sub, if he (or she) needed anything, .
This kid....NOT nice.
#16 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:35 PM ESTyeah, right, why on earth would we want accountability
next thing you'll be saying is that the bankers did the right thing, @!$%#ing brilliant
The kid exposed a teacher not doing their job and HE gets suspended? And teachers wonder why the backlash?
devon,
ANY of us can "be reported" to the Authorities, IF THAT, the "Reporting" becomes Acceptable....
....MAY My America NEVER *devolve* to THAT....
The kid, could have said, to the Sub, "May I be of Any Service, to You? Are you Okay? Oh....I understand...."
<>Just wait,....and WHEN You are "reported"....or, as you said, "exposed"....<>
The fact that you think the teacher has NO culpability speaks volumes. Most of us KNOW that if we were sleeping at work, we'd be fired. Only teachers can get away with blaming everyone but themselves.
Again.... And teachers wonder why the backlash? I can't think of a profession with less accountability. ALL they have to do is blame the kids...and .....they expect no questions to be asked. Well, that's changing. Decades too late, but it's changing.
devon,
of course the teacher has "culpability";
ALL of us, are "culpable" for OUR actions;
This student is ALSO "culpable", for his action.
<>
AND if THIS TEACHER was kept awake at night with a sick child or spouse,
then there were "mitigating circumstances";
and this (*D.S*) student, didn't ask, or offer anything of a positive value;
this Student's "attitude", is a MAJOR Problem.
a *Good Person*, which this student IS NOT, would have inquired of the sub,
"are you okay (Sir, Ma'am)?"
You're STILL making excuses. If this teacher was up all night, then he shouldn't have had other children in his care. Period. Mitigating circumstnaces wouldn't work for the rest of us.
A GOOD teacher, wouldn't be sleeping during class. However, standards for teachers themselves are nothing like the standards for the rest of us. You're making excuses for this teacher time and time again. Sadly, typical.
I can make an excuse for the teacher for falling asleep.
I can NOT Make an Excuse for This (*D.S.*) Student's Action.
I can make an excuse for the teacher for falling asleep.
No you can't, there is no excuse for a teacher who falls asleep when the teacher has children in their charge.
drummer,
"....Those of US,.... THOSE, Who are WITHOUT SIN;....May CAST the *first* Stone...."
The Teacher fell asleep, very True;
but, if the teacher had a "control" over his(her) body (at that time),
(s)he would have chosen NOT to fall asleep....
The (*D.S.*) kid, DID HAVE CONTROL, over his actions....
BOTH Offended....BUT Only One of These TWO, Offended With VOLITION !
So if a nurse falls asleep while caring for the patient, it's the patient's fault, right? Of if an airline pilot falls asleep up in the air, it's the passengers fault.
Teachers have been able to blame EVERYTHING on kids for so long, that there are literally no standards left for them. None at all. Everything is someone else's fault.
Just an FYI...I'm a card carrying Democrat. I have no problem with unions, per se. I don't even blame unions for what's happened in education. I DO blame teachers, administrators, and districts for refusing to police their own. This case is a prime example of how teachers feel entitled to blame everyone but themselves for their poor job performance(s). Standards are higher in fast food these days, than in education.
devon,....drummer,....,
IF, a Nurse falls asleep, while with a patient; something is Wrong with her/him, physically.
IF, a Pilot falls asleep, while flying an Aircraft, something is Wrong with him/her, physically.
Now, devon, Mr/Ms "Card Carrying Democrat", Do WE Blame The Democrats (?), for "Falling Asleep" ??!
The Republican *Rhinos*, BLAME The Democrats for *The State of The Union*!!!!
The Rhinos SAY, that The Dems had "Fallen Asleep" on The Job.
....and THAT, may TRULY BE The Case....
Shall WE *VOTE Republican* ?!
Hmmm...so every-time someone drifts off, there physically ill? Wrong.
You're so blindsided by the fact that there should be no performance standards for teachers, even basic ones, that you're bent on the fact that something was wrong. Have you ever heard of airline pilots showing up drunk? I have. Been all over the news. A few times.
If this teacher was sick, he should have done the responsible thing and called out. He could have been exhausted due to an illness, as you're so sure. Or he could have been out all night drinking. We simply don't know. What we DO know is that instead of holding the teacher accountable, they blamed the kid.. Again. As usual. People are over it. Even liberals are looking at teachers unions and tenure and saying...Meh....
devon,
*BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING*
however, YOU have Nothing to worry about....heh....
(by the way, I am Not talking about the Sub, either right or wrong, OR good or bad)
I AM Talking about THIS (*D.S.*) kid.
I AM Talking about THIS (*D.S.*) kid.
And therein lies the problem. That's been the case for decades now. It's ALWAYS the kid, and never the teacher. When my kids were in school the teachers decided that there was no need to actually teach spelling after SECOND grade, because they deemed it useless rote learning. When kids couldn't spell, they blamed the kids, not their lack of teaching. They picked a 'new new fuzzy' math program that three different elementary school teachers told me was basically a 'self taught' program that they had very little to do with. When 80% of the kids couldn't get proficient on the end of year tests, they blamed the kids and the parents.
Long story short, after enlisting tutors, working extra at night, on weekends, and straight through summer, three out of three of our kids earned academic scholarships, but if we hadn't jumped in with both feet to fill in the gaping holes left behind by the school system, I don't even want to think about the skills they'd most likely be missing. Accountability has been missing from schools with respect to teachers for far too long.
devon,
okay...AGREED; concerning some Teachers, NO Doubt....
BUT, Concerning THIS kid; a DEFINITE (*D.S.*)....which Rhymes with "LIP ZIT" !!!!
Brojo,
"Important Stuff", could be friends, in New York, Christmas '12, AND The Radio City, ROCKETTES.
Brojo, My BEST FRIEND,
Stop Cussin' (or NOT).
My Old Bod was walkin' for miles yesterday, around town, and I had forgotten to charge my Fone.
Both are wrong, but in the end school acted worse the kid would never of had to use the phone if the sub wasn't sleeping
#18 - Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:45 AM ESTagain, tell us WHY, this student "HAD TO" post that picture ??!
Instead of asking FIRST, if the sub was okay??!
NO human kindness and NO human decency, is IN THIS kid.
Kid had to post the picture because that is what kids do now days if your going to have proof have the evidence in multiple places and across many witnesses. Kid was the smart one that did the right thing. School went over the top when they suspended him but gave no punishment to sub
School went over the top when they suspended him but gave no punishment to sub
The subs are contractors and you can't punish contractors. All you can do is not use them again.
Both are wrong, but in the end school acted worse the kid would never of had to use the phone if the sub wasn't sleeping
The kid did not "have to use" the phone. What compelling reason was there. Was there a life threatening emergency? That's like saying you had an accident because the car you hit did not get out of the way.
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